General News & Politics (40 Viewers)
- Thread starter Ocelot
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That is really not much of an achievement man. You are actually proud of being more democratic than Qatar, Lebanon, Egypt and Saudi Arabia 
Is that not the case for most countries in the world?
That is if you are talking about democracy, political situation. Because if we are going to talk about the economy, markets, infrastructure, quality of life, opportunities, etc. I can think of a couple of Middle Eastern countries that are better.
and don't try to pretend Turkey was a real democracy before Erdogan. You just preferred the people in power back then so you're willing to ignore their mishaps. But a country where the military routinely take over and oust democratically elected governments is not a real democracy.
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Not really. You are just as biased as Erdogan supporters.
Erdogan has done a lot of damage, I am no fan of either side. But they are both different sides of the same coin.
Is that not the case for most countries in the world?That is if you are talking about democracy, political situation. Because if we are going to talk about the economy, markets, infrastructure, quality of life, opportunities, etc. I can think of a couple of Middle Eastern countries that are better.
and don't try to pretend Turkey was a real democracy before Erdogan. You just preferred the people in power back then so you're willing to ignore their mishaps. But a country where the military routinely take over and oust democratically elected governments is not a real democracy.
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Not really. You are just as biased as Erdogan supporters.
Erdogan has done a lot of damage, I am no fan of either side. But they are both different sides of the same coin.
That is really not much of an achievement man. You are actually proud of being more democratic than Qatar, Lebanon, Egypt and Saudi Arabia Is that not the case for most countries in the world?
That is if you are talking about democracy, political situation. Because if we are going to talk about the economy, markets, infrastructure, quality of life, opportunities, etc. I can think of a couple of Middle Eastern countries that are better.
and don't try to pretend Turkey was a real democracy before Erdogan. You just preferred the people in power back then so you're willing to ignore their mishaps. But a country where the military routinely take over and oust democratically elected governments is not a real democracy.
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Not really. You are just as biased as Erdogan supporters.
Erdogan has done a lot of damage, I am no fan of either side. But they are both different sides of the same coin.
Is that not the case for most countries in the world?That is if you are talking about democracy, political situation. Because if we are going to talk about the economy, markets, infrastructure, quality of life, opportunities, etc. I can think of a couple of Middle Eastern countries that are better.
and don't try to pretend Turkey was a real democracy before Erdogan. You just preferred the people in power back then so you're willing to ignore their mishaps. But a country where the military routinely take over and oust democratically elected governments is not a real democracy.
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Not really. You are just as biased as Erdogan supporters.
Erdogan has done a lot of damage, I am no fan of either side. But they are both different sides of the same coin.
I am not pro any party in Turkey, but Erdogan is the one who brought the presidential system and made the parliament a puppet show. Using religion as a manupilation tool in the meantime.
And again, get back to me when he's voted out in 2023.
Is it? Oh well then i guess we have a few democratic countries in the Middle East too. Who would have knew.
I don't disagree with your second statement at all. He jails academics and journalists and oppresses his opposition too. Great, so we agree on Erdogan. But to suggest that somehow Turkey was better before him is disingenuous and only suggests to me, you disregard the military's undemocratic influence and actions before because you agree with them ideologically or prefer them to Erdogan.
And democratic traditions? come on man, who are you kidding hahaha
I don't disagree with your second statement at all. He jails academics and journalists and oppresses his opposition too. Great, so we agree on Erdogan. But to suggest that somehow Turkey was better before him is disingenuous and only suggests to me, you disregard the military's undemocratic influence and actions before because you agree with them ideologically or prefer them to Erdogan.
And democratic traditions? come on man, who are you kidding hahaha
Erdoğan is the first ever dictator/authoritarian (wanna-be perhaps, as there is still hope of voting him out) in Turkish history. Unless you count Atatürk, who might have been one as well, but a benevolent one.
That's democratic tradition IMO.
Trust me I know a full-on dictatorship when I see one, I live under one. Turkey has hope still. 2023 will be do or die.
That's democratic tradition IMO.
Trust me I know a full-on dictatorship when I see one, I live under one. Turkey has hope still. 2023 will be do or die.
No democratic countries have that many military coups. There is no way you can argue that when the military has the power to do that, and generals are as rich and influential as they were, that you had an independent civilian executive branch. That is not a democratic tradition, it's a democratic facade. You are no different to Erdogan supporters, because if you were, your principle would be the same, whether the people in power doing undemocratic things were people you liked or not.
Ataturk was a benevolent dictator? maybe so, but it seems to me again, you only count that as a good thing when it's someone you like. As much as you glorify western style liberal democracy, you only seem to apply those principles on people you don't like. But dictatorship and undemocratic behavior is still that, whether its practiced by a religious party/individual or a secular one.
Ataturk was a benevolent dictator? maybe so, but it seems to me again, you only count that as a good thing when it's someone you like. As much as you glorify western style liberal democracy, you only seem to apply those principles on people you don't like. But dictatorship and undemocratic behavior is still that, whether its practiced by a religious party/individual or a secular one.
Again, that is no achievement. If you're talking about assimilation in western europe, turks on average have a lot of issues here too (NL and Germany especially), not just Arabs. and while muslim immigrant assimilation is probably the dominant issue nowadays (probably rightfully so). But in general if you want to be radical about what kind of immigrants to accept, I'd be careful of people supporting all kinds of authoritarian, illiberal ideologies. If you're a fan of dictators like Ataturk, or militaries contravening civil, democratically elected governments. If you subscribe to racist, backward ideologies. Then maybe this isn't the place for you. Maybe you should go back to where you came from if you can't unlearn the negative aspects of the culture you came from. I mean if we're going to be radical, if we're going to protect the values of western, liberal style democracies we should not take any half measures, right?
I think the EU in general is a little too lax with all kinds of poisonous ideologies. It's why you see countries like Hungary making a mockery of EU values like the rule of law.
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Some of them are much much better places than where you're from. I can't remember where that is, but i do remember it was some middle income shithole. The kind people go to because everything is cheaper. Nice for a holiday maybe, but who in his right mind would ever want to live there.
I think the EU in general is a little too lax with all kinds of poisonous ideologies. It's why you see countries like Hungary making a mockery of EU values like the rule of law.
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Some of them are much much better places than where you're from. I can't remember where that is, but i do remember it was some middle income shithole. The kind people go to because everything is cheaper. Nice for a holiday maybe, but who in his right mind would ever want to live there.
none of the dictators are muslim but colonial governors purposely turning countries into dumpster fires. not a coincidence indeed. after ww1 and collapse of ottoman empire, muslim countries have been invaded and status quo still continues today, military juntas and dictators funded by west acting as the jailors of the people.
I think you are not that familiar with the countries i mentioned. Being religious in those countries back in the old regimes makes you a state suspect already. People in those countries especially the bigger cities are not that religious tbh. Especially Syria and Lebanon. I think the problems we have in the region are much more than just religion driven.
That being said, you have Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya that are examples of ultra conservative highly religious populations and states that are completely fucked up and are strong evidence for the point you are making. But to just brush the whole region with the same brush is lazy and untrue.
That being said, you have Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya that are examples of ultra conservative highly religious populations and states that are completely fucked up and are strong evidence for the point you are making. But to just brush the whole region with the same brush is lazy and untrue.