Coronavirus (COVID-19 Outbreak) (26 Viewers)

[Siamak]

People falling on needles and stabbing themselves?



Vaccine requirements are a completely unfair, apartheid-like system. Especially since not everyone has access to vaccines.

would be true for third world people who live under authoritarian regimes or don’t have access to fair health system.

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People falling on needles and stabbing themselves?

But even more to the point I see, vaccines are designed to primarily protect you ... not to protect those around you. As such, they are tested for preventing symptoms ... not infection or transmission. The latter two are what we really need to focus on in social environments, hence things like PCR tests. And while vaccines do lower the incidents of both, they aren't a replacement for testing. It's merely cheap and lazy shorthand to substitute vaccines for infection testing.

Even more dangerous, relying on vaccines as your lazy, only strategy is like dead-bolting your front door while leaving your windows open. Vaccines will be breached more by variants over time, and if you have only one line of defense you're kinda screwed once that breaks down.

This is an experiment. The vaccines have been approved only with Emergency Use Authorization, meaning because of the "urgent" situation they skipped animal trials and human trials were very limited in numbers and in time, and on the condition was that no alternative treatments were available. So countries are being pressured to ban the use of cheap, safe and fast medicines while the people participate in a worldwide gene therapy experiment and pay big pharma millions.

 

Buy on AliExpress.com

[GordoDeCentral]

Right on queue

 

[swag]

What statistics? Do you have a time machine to gather enough data to compare across methods? The very people who make this shit are not made liable for any undesired effects for the next few years, you willing to stick your neck out and say there is enough evidence to sugget otherwise? While stats are agnostic, your position simply isn't.

No one is making you use a cellphone. You are welcome to jab yourself as much as you want, like i said you make your own risk/reward assessment, and one way or the other doesn't make you any wiser.

Maybe not long-term statistics. But that is a calculated risk between not taking action and worrying about potential long term side-effects when there is no evidence to suggest there will be. People freaked out about potential heart condition issues with the mRNA vaccines, but when you look at the stats it looked like your likelihood of a heart problem was actually worse without the vaccine ... making it worth taking off label as a heart medication. As insane as that sounds.

But the statistical hurdles are big. This is why getting through clinical trials is such an expensive endeavor. You have to statistically prove in randomized control trials that you "do no harm" first. Then a trial for efficacy on a small set for Phase 2. Then a trial for efficacy on a much larger set for Phase 3. Coming out the other end, there are tens of thousands of measured cases.

And yes, I am willing to stick my neck out. The statistics are big and sound in my perspective. And I'm happier Portugal stuck me with Pfeizer's mRNA one over the J&J or AZ. (We're not talking about people being forced to take vaccines, let alone mRNA ones.) As far as liability goes, if there were major failures that somehow escaped all the designed safety protocols, I don't think any of these manufactures would exist anymore on the market. Wall Street destroys pharma failures.

Where we are now, we have administered over 3.5 billion doses globally. That's more than all the doses of oxycontin in West Virginia. Or something like that. I know you're no novice to things like statistical significance in randomized control trials, so I am a little unclear on what data is "missing" to feel confident. Any stricter standards and we'd never release a cancer drug.

Someone who doesn't use a mobile phone because they're worried about the possible long-term effects of brain cancer doesn't have to get one, as you said. But I'm not sure I would socially call that a wise choice. Everybody has different risk tolerances, even if it's 0.000000000000000000001% is too much. At which point why get out of bed?

Portugal are a bunch of vaccine junkies though... We started slow but are en route to out do the UK and Israel.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Maybe not long-term statistics. But that is a calculated risk between not taking action and worrying about potential long term side-effects when there is no evidence to suggest there will be. People freaked out about potential heart condition issues with the mRNA vaccines, but when you look at the stats it looked like your likelihood of a heart problem was actually worse without the vaccine ... making it worth taking off label as a heart medication. As insane as that sounds.

But the statistical hurdles are big. This is why getting through clinical trials is such an expensive endeavor. You have to statistically prove in randomized control trials that you "do no harm" first. Then a trial for efficacy on a small set for Phase 2. Then a trial for efficacy on a much larger set for Phase 3. Coming out the other end, there are tens of thousands of measured cases.

And yes, I am willing to stick my neck out. The statistics are big and sound in my perspective. And I'm happier Portugal stuck me with Pfeizer's mRNA one over the J&J or AZ. (We're not talking about people being forced to take vaccines, let alone mRNA ones.) As far as liability goes, if there were major failures that somehow escaped all the designed safety protocols, I don't think any of these manufactures would exist anymore on the market. Wall Street destroys pharma failures.

Where we are now, we have administered over 3.5 billion doses globally. That's more than all the doses of oxycontin in West Virginia. Or something like that. I know you're no novice to things like statistical significance in randomized control trials, so I am a little unclear on what data is "missing" to feel confident. Any stricter standards and we'd never release a cancer drug.

Someone who doesn't use a mobile phone because they're worried about the possible long-term effects of brain cancer doesn't have to get one, as you said. But I'm not sure I would socially call that a wise choice. Everybody has different risk tolerances, even if it's 0.000000000000000000001% is too much. At which point why get out of bed?

Portugal are a bunch of vaccine junkies though... We started slow but are en route to out do the UK and Israel.

The same exact logic is why people are reticent to do anything agaisnt a virus that has a +99% survival rate for most. I am not trying to dissuade anyone here nor in my daily life from taking the vax, my gripe is with the hubris as if we have a handle on this, we don't.

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

Agree 100%. But then should businesses who require masks or vaccine proof be forced to let unvaccinated, maskless people in? Because that would require the government to step in and force them to… which would be government overreach, well, at least according to current conservative politics. I guess it’s only government overreach if it disagrees with your own perspective though lol

Anyways, vaccines shouldn’t be mandated obviously, people should not have their rights infringed upon by their own government even if unvaccinated, but I believe businesses should be able to require whatever they want… if they are willing to lose business, so be it, ya know.

Unvaccinated international travel is a trickier issue… travel isn’t some basic right… so saying foreign tourists have to be vaccinated to come into a country is a little different.

Businesses should be allowed to choose who they let in (employees or customers), sure.

And countries get to choose who they restrict form entering, agreed.

I disagree with a state forcing it upon it's own citizens.

 

[Nejc]

One lady doctor said, it could take 3 to 6 months to start seeing the side effects!

I think the first vaccinations started about 7 months ago.

 

[Dostoevsky]

Businesses should be allowed to choose who they let in (employees or customers), sure.

And countries get to choose who they restrict form entering, agreed.

I disagree with a state forcing it upon it's own citizens.

What's the difference between business and a country? It's both about people in power who say what others should do and neither should be in position to do that.

 

[IliveForJuve]

"Recent research from the UK’s multi-institution Convalescence study found that long Covid was significantly more common in middle age (17%) than in younger people (7.8%). But long Covid is far more severe in some than others: about 1.2% of 20-year-olds and 4.8% of middle-aged people interviewed for the study said their illness was serious enough to impact on their daily routine."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...d-leave-hundreds-of-thousands-with-long-covid

 

[JuveJay]

What's the difference between business and a country? It's both about people in power who say what others should do and neither should be in position to do that.

You're talking about multi-national companies, surely? Not someone who owns a florist and employs 5 people. Because I can think of quite a few differences between them and and a country.

Long before Covid there were many reasons why a business could refuse you entry.

 

[Bjerknes]

Not enough data

I understand there’s not enough data. But I want to hear a scientific argument as to why there might be longer term harm from the mRNA vaccines. Having no data isn’t evidence of anything.

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Businesses should be allowed to choose who they let in (employees or customers), sure.

And countries get to choose who they restrict form entering, agreed.

I disagree with a state forcing it upon it's own citizens.

I’m flying to Greece in another month and have to change flights in dogshit Heathrow. I’m not entering their dumbass country but I still have to present a negative Covid test despite being vaccinated. Just to set foot in their shitty airport. That’s a bit ridiculous if you ask me.

 

[Post Ironic]

What's the difference between business and a country? It's both about people in power who say what others should do and neither should be in position to do that.

? so you think businesses should have zero ability to have any rules? “No shirt, no shoes, no service” shouldn’t be allowed? Churches refusing to marry gay couples… They shouldn’t be allowed to do that? A cake company should have to bake a Neo-Nazi cake if asked for? Etc etc

Businesses are allowed to refuse entry/service for all sorts of reasons. And the only way to change that is for the government to make and enforce laws that don’t allow this, which again, would be government stepping in and saying what businesses can or can’t do.

This idea that government or businesses or anyone/thing in a position of power shouldn’t be able to say what people can or can’t do, just doesn’t hold water in any sort of state/nation. I guess we could go back to tribalism and total chaos so we can have total freedom.

 

[JuveJay]

I’m flying to Greece in another month and have to change flights in dogshit Heathrow. I’m not entering their dumbass country but I still have to present a negative Covid test despite being vaccinated. Just to set foot in their shitty airport. That’s a bit ridiculous if you ask me.

Seems understandable given you will presumably be around at least hundreds of other people. Not sure what the numbers are like for Heathrow right now but they usually have 200K+ pass through each day.

Where in Greece are you going?

 

[Post Ironic]

I understand there’s not enough data. But I want to hear a scientific argument as to why there might be longer term harm from the mRNA vaccines. Having no data isn’t evidence of anything.

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I’m flying to Greece in another month and have to change flights in dogshit Heathrow. I’m not entering their dumbass country but I still have to present a negative Covid test despite being vaccinated. Just to set foot in their shitty airport. That’s a bit ridiculous if you ask me.

mRNA platform had already been developed for getting viral mRNA into the body during research for cancer and other vaccines that are being studied… which was one of the reasons the Covid vaccine was able to be developed so fast. A second was that companies, thanks to government backing, mass produced the vaccine for human trials before the initial experimentation had finished and it had been approved for human trials. Which was a financial risk, but one that allowed for a much sped up process. From what I gather, corners weren’t really cut in the development of this vaccine. And the long-term safety worries would be the same for any other vaccine that doesn’t have a 10+ year trial to see if something is going to happen a decade away. Which is pretty much all vaccines and treatments ever.

 

[swag]

The same exact logic is why people are reticent to do anything agaisnt a virus that has a +99% survival rate for most. I am not trying to dissuade anyone here nor in my daily life from taking the vax, my gripe is with the hubris as if we have a handle on this, we don't.

Everybody has to decide their own personal risk tolerance. I wouldn't look at only death risks as the downside -- given long Covid or even just the likelihood of younger people being laid up for months, let alone the increased risk of passing it on to others. But that's me.

And I am in 100% agreement that we completely do not have a handle on this. And I'm including all those with double vaccine doses. Ridiculous hubris from California declaring "Freedom Day" and saying that they've fared well despite the existence of the Delta variant ... weeks before it really spread and they would later have communities go back on masking requirements indoors.

And I still fault the US for a lazy strategy of all their eggs in the vaccine basket. When a new variant breaches the vaccines, and it's already happening in small degrees, there is zero backup plan.

There really is no "post-pandemic". Just varying degrees that it's being managed or not managed. This is going to be a bumpy ride for quite a while.

I’m flying to Greece in another month and have to change flights in dogshit Heathrow. I’m not entering their dumbass country but I still have to present a negative Covid test despite being vaccinated. Just to set foot in their shitty airport. That’s a bit ridiculous if you ask me.

It is an indoor space that's a breeding ground for the circulation of global variant carriers from all over the world though. Here in Portugal we theoretically have to show proof of a negative Covid test or our vaccine status if we want to eat indoors at a restaurant. I say theoretically because enforcement has been selective as it was only sprung on everyone by the government Friday in a weak move. But other nations, like France, are doing this too now.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

I understand there’s not enough data. But I want to hear a scientific argument as to why there might be longer term harm from the mRNA vaccines. Having no data isn’t evidence of anything.

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I’m flying to Greece in another month and have to change flights in dogshit Heathrow. I’m not entering their dumbass country but I still have to present a negative Covid test despite being vaccinated. Just to set foot in their shitty airport. That’s a bit ridiculous if you ask me.

The onus and liability is on the manufacturer to provide a thorough research for a full disclusure, if research is rushed for whatever reason and liability is lifted by bureaucrats, that doesn't mean the responsability shifts. Having no data means you the consumer bares that respilonsability, what you said is simply a cope.

Everybody has to decide their own personal risk tolerance. I wouldn't look at only death risks as the downside -- given long Covid or even just the likelihood of younger people being laid up for months, let alone the increased risk of passing it on to others. But that's me.

And I am in 100% agreement that we completely do not have a handle on this. And I'm including all those with double vaccine doses. Ridiculous hubris from California declaring "Freedom Day" and saying that they've fared well despite the existence of the Delta variant ... weeks before it really spread and they would later have communities go back on masking requirements indoors.

And I still fault the US for a lazy strategy of all their eggs in the vaccine basket. When a new variant breaches the vaccines, and it's already happening in small degrees, there is zero backup plan.

There really is no "post-pandemic". Just varying degrees that it's being managed or not managed. This is going to be a bumpy ride for quite a while.



It is an indoor space that's a breeding ground for the circulation of global variant carriers from all over the world though. Here in Portugal we theoretically have to show proof of a negative Covid test or our vaccine status if we want to eat indoors at a restaurant. I say theoretically because enforcement has been selective as it was only sprung on everyone by the government Friday in a weak move. But other nations, like France, are doing this too now.

I'll go as far as to say there's no real management more like reactionary theatrics to cover the decision makers ass. All the models have been one big joke.

It comes down to realizing humans are not in control no matter how sophisticated or advanced their civilization is, and we will always be subjects to the absurd caprices of life/nature... The more we fixate on the silly idea on control the more damage we will cause.

 

[Gian]

I don't usually agree with you because of vaccination but on this topic it's become more evident than ever that a strategy of lockdown and waiting for vaccination roll out at this speed will never solve this problem really.

I personally think acceptance is the only way to get us out of this. Vaccination can help in reducing the number of hospitalizations. But either way, Covid is here too stay. For a long time.

 

[Buck Fuddy]

I don't usually agree with you because of vaccination but on this topic it's become more evident than ever that a strategy of lockdown and waiting for vaccination roll out at this speed will never solve this problem really.

I personally think acceptance is the only way to get us out of this. Vaccination can help in reducing the number of hospitalizations. But either way, Covid is here too stay. For a long time.

I agree. Question is, what is acceptance?

Should we return to "normal" & accept that hospitals can't keep up if too many people refuse to get vaccinated? So, essentially, people dying on the streets because there's no more room available. Sucks if you happen to be the one to get sick at a bad moment in time, I guess.
Should we accept to continue with (partial) lockdows & other restrictions for the next few years? Forever?
Should we accept that things like mass events can no longer happen?
Should we accept lower vaccination rates leading to a neverending string of mutations (for better or for worse)?
...

No sane person will refuse the fact that this virus is here to stay & that we'll have to live with it. But living with it can really mean any number of things.


I also can't stop wondering why some people keep claiming vaccination is not the solution here. Just look at the data available right now:
- Infections are rising again in a lot of countries. Most people who get infected right now have not been (fully) vaccinated.
- The vast majority of people actually getting sick, have not been (fully) vaccinated.
- Of the people actually ending up in hospital, the vast, vast, vast majority has not been (fully) vaccinated. Same for casualties. It has basically almost become an anomaly. (Even if weaker people are still more likely to, obviously.)

So whether you are pro or anti vaccination, for whatever random reason, claiming that vaccination is not a solution here is just false. It's a lie, plain & simple. There's really no other way to put it.

 

[Bjerknes]

Seems understandable given you will presumably be around at least hundreds of other people. Not sure what the numbers are like for Heathrow right now but they usually have 200K+ pass through each day.

Where in Greece are you going?

It’s just too many hoops to jump through considering I’m vaccinated. I could take the Covid test 3 days before and then have a Covid orgy 24 hours before my flight. So it’s just silly.

I’m heading to Santorini and Crete, then Athens. Just couldn’t find a decent flight directly to Athens then Santorini.

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The onus and liability is on the manufacturer to provide a thorough research for a full disclusure, if research is rushed for whatever reason and liability is lifted by bureaucrats, that doesn't mean the responsability shifts. Having no data means you the consumer bares that respilonsability, what you said is simply a cope.


I'll go as far as to say there's no real management more like reactionary theatrics to cover the decision makers ass. All the models have been one big joke.

It comes down to realizing humans are not in control no matter how sophisticated or advanced their civilization is, and we will always be subjects to the absurd caprices of life/nature... The more we fixate on the silly idea on control the more damage we will cause.

Meh, my father has worked with vaccines for decades and he was first in line to get the mRNA, over the others too. I don’t understand it like he does but I’m cool with that. Not a cope, it’s based on science.

 

[Bjerknes]

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

What's the difference between business and a country? It's both about people in power who say what others should do and neither should be in position to do that.

Didn't see this before.

I consider a business as property of the owner. As such, business owners should be able to decide who they hire or serve as customers.