[CL] Real Madrid 2-1 JUVENTUS (October 23, 2013) (3 Viewers)

[Red]

Due to the lack of width in the system - width in 4-3-1-2 is usually from the full backs and I don't see Chiellini or Caceres getting high up too often - it can be very easy for the game to get stuck in a small central area, which can make it easy for the opposition to contain/press.

So to make it harder to contain/press, you will probably have to stretch the game out long instead of wide, in order to create the space to retain the ball and build attacks.

That will typically mean that you need to have at least one forward looking to puch the defence back in order to try and open space between defence and midfield and have one midfielder looking to burst forward, again to try and drag the opponent back the way and to try and create space.

With Llorente as centre forward and Marchiso as trequartista, Juve, theoretically, would be well equipped to move well enough to drag an opponent around enough to make space.

Whether Juve can learn the movements quickly enough to make the system work when they haven't played in before is, of course, another matter entirely.

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are there rumors of 4-3-1-2?

SKY is suggesting it.

Buffon

Caceres-Barzagli-Bonucci-Chiellini

Vidal-Pirlo-Pogba

Marchisio

Tevez-Llorente​

is the team they are talking about.

 

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[LiquidPLP]

Never really viewed 4-3-1-2 as a system all that suited to pressing because there will almost always be a relatively easy out-ball on to one of the full backs, due to the lack of width high up the pitch in 4-3-1-2.

It can be done, but it would be pretty tough for Juve to change system and have mastered pressing properly with it in the couple of days before the game.

Yes I realize you won't get it overnight but this should be better than usual 352. 4312 isn't the best formation for pressing but Conte instead of revolution takes another step in evolution I'd say. He's adjusting the formation to field his best players he's got at the moment. Without Licht and Asamoah not living up to expectations he's making room for one more midfielder which makes sense imo.

Could also be that the 4-3-1-2 is a reaction to the suggestion that Real Madrid will play 4-3-3, rather than 4-2-3-1.

Playing against 4-3-3 would mean Pirlo wouldn't have a direct opponent in the way that he typically would in 4-3-1-2, which could lead Juve to think there is less need for the extra centre half to guard against Pirlo's defensive weakness.

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I don't buy that.

However, you could argue that Juve can't win without pressing, because if you are to be successful in sitting deep and soaking up pressure, you'd better be good at playing on the counter-attack - and Juve ain't good at it.

The bolded part - very good effort from you I didn't notice it at first.

The part about pressing is where we disagree then. I don't think we're good at soaking up pressure. We always struggle big time against stronger opponents that use 433 or 4231 and this is what interests me. The fact we beat Celtic that way last season doesn't bother me - last season's poor Milan did too much trouble to us with their 433, same goes for very poor Roma that season. IMO if you want to win you have to bully the opponent.

 

[ZoSo]

Due to the lack of width in the system - width in 4-3-1-2 is usually from the full backs and I don't see Chiellini or Caceres getting high up too often - it can be very easy for the game to get stuck in a small central area, which can make it easy for the opposition to contain/press.

So to make it harder to contain/press, you will probably have to stretch the game out long instead of wide, in order to create the space to retain the ball and build attacks.

That will typically mean that you need to have at least one forward looking to puch the defence back in order to try and open space between defence and midfield and have one midfielder looking to burst forward, again to try and drag the opponent back the way and to try and create space.

With Llorente as centre forward and Marchiso as trequartista, Juve, theoretically, would be well equipped to move well enough to drag an opponent around enough to make space.

Whether Juve can learn the movements quickly enough to make the system work when they haven't played in before is, of course, another matter entirely.

Do you think Vidal would be better at AM? as he would allow pressing higher up the pitch so we could win the ball back earlier etc... plus I also think he is much more comfortable with the ball at his feet than Marchisio, but maybe that isn't the reason of why he is being suggested to play there.

 

[Pirlo's Beard]

On paper, Vidal would be the best fit playing as the '1' in the 4-3-1-2. But I imagine Conte will want Vidal doing leg work in midfield and helping Caceres contain Ronaldo. As Ronaldo is on Vidals usual side anyway.

 

[LiquidPLP]

Vidal would be better than Marchisio there that's for sure. I'd play it like this considering it's 4312:

Pogba - Pirlo - Marchisio
Vidal​

 

[Red]

The part about pressing is where we disagree then. I don't think we're good at soaking up pressure. We always struggle big time against stronger opponents that use 433 or 4231 and this is what interests me. The fact we beat Celtic that way last season doesn't bother me - last season's poor Milan did too much trouble to us with their 433, same goes for very poor Roma that season. IMO if you want to win you have to bully the opponent.

Juve haven't been in a position where they have had to soak up pressure in a conventional manner, other than in the Celtic game.

In the other games, Juve were in trouble because of the opposition pressing hard to win the ball back and Juve's failing to deal with that allowing them to attack in situation where Juve aren't organised with men behind the ball.

In the the game in Munich for instance, Juve actually dealt with situations where they were defending deep and with numbers pretty well.

Conte's desire to almost always control possession and press means that sitting deep and letting the opponent have the ball and try to attack is something that happens very rarely (far more rarely than would happen if I were picking the tactics. ).

You don't see Juve appraoching games in the way Mourinho's Inter did when they won, which is much closer to how I like to see a team play than how Juve typically play.

 

[rakib567]

SKY is suggesting it.

Buffon

Caceres-Barzagli-Bonucci-Chiellini

Vidal-Pirlo-Pogba

Marchisio

Tevez-Llorente​

is the team they are talking about.

to be honest that it a very centrally based lineup. we all know that marcelo and arbeloa like to push fordward and we should take the opportunity of those free spaces. that is by using 2 wingers. i see pogba or giovinco substituiting pepe and maybe asamoah or peluso at leftback. it won't that bad.

 

[Pirlo's Beard]

Gio as a sub on the left could be good actually

He should in theory get at Arbelola and hopefully even irritate Pepe (If he's playing) into taking him out in the box

 

[Red]

Do you think Vidal would be better at AM? as he would allow pressing higher up the pitch so we could win the ball back earlier etc... plus I also think he is much more comfortable with the ball at his feet than Marchisio, but maybe that isn't the reason of why he is being suggested to play there.

Depends on what you want from the trequartista.

If it's pressing - Vidal

If it's ability to keep the ball in tight spaces - Pogba

If it's intelligent movement - Marchisio

But you also have to consider what you think is best for the two midfielders playing either side of Pirlo.

Is Vidal's ability going to be more useful in playing on the right and being the player moving out to Marcelo or doubling up on Ronaldo to stop Caceres being left isolated one-on-one? I think last time Milan played Real Madrid, they played 4-3-1-2 and had Gattuso man-mark Ronaldo from the right side of the midfield three. Vidal would be the Juve player most suited to doing that.

Do you want Pogba's ability to retain the ball and get out of tight spots deeper to give Juve more chance of being able to play out and relieve pressure?

Or is Marchisio's excellent positioning and reading of the game that is needed?

All depends on what tactics you want to use.

 

[dann10]

Diego Lopez
arbeloa ramos pepe marcelo
khedira modric
di maria isco ronaldo
benzema

according to Sky

 

[ZoSo]

Depends on what you want from the trequartista.

If it's pressing - Vidal

If it's ability to keep the ball in tight spaces - Pogba

If it's intelligent movement - Marchisio

But you also have to consider what you think is best for the two midfielders playing either side of Pirlo.

Is Vidal's ability going to be more useful in playing on the right and being the player moving out to Marcelo or doubling up on Ronaldo to stop Caceres being left isolated one-on-one? I think last time Milan played Real Madrid, they played 4-3-1-2 and had Gattuso man-mark Ronaldo from the right side of the midfield three. Vidal would be the Juve player most suited to doing that.

Do you want Pogba's ability to retain the ball and get out of tight spots deeper to give Juve more chance of being able to play out and relieve pressure?

Or is Marchisio's excellent positioning and reading of the game that is needed?

All depends on what tactics you want to use.

interesting, but definitely defending against ronaldo would be the biggest priority obviously. Tevez should do a pretty good job pressing if he can drop fairly deep. If we can press as a whole team with proper grinta then I think it could be a close, but that's if they manage to get their mentality in check. That is biggest thing for me, more than tactics because even if we use the best tactics without the right mentality they are not going to press properly and will be prone to making many more mistakes.

 

[vaper]

Linup looks good except Chiellini cant really take on players or cross very well. This would be better.

Asamoah-Chiellini-Barzagli-Carceres

 

[Vlad]

Linup looks good except Chiellini cant really take on players or cross very well. This would be better.

Asamoah-Chiellini-Barzagli-Carceres

My kind of thinking.

 

[vaper]

Then again, most attacks will obviously be going down the right side so that will leave Chiellini in his natural position

 

[rakib567]

Linup looks good except Chiellini cant really take on players or cross very well. This would be better.

Asamoah-Chiellini-Barzagli-Carceres

i have been arguing asamoah as leftback for ages.

 

[Yuckerini]

he's a better passer than chiellini, solid defensively, better going forward, and still has great strength and speed

 

[Vlad]

He needs to be tested there, not for tomorrow's game of course. I recall one game where he played as LB - vs Torino last year - and he was quite good, but how much of a benchmark that can be.

 

[Yuckerini]

agreed.

 

[LiquidPLP]

He's got everything that LB actually needs besides crossing. He could be good there but I'm not sure I'd want to see him there. We need him in midfield if we want to play Pogba-Pirlo-Vidal-Marchisio midfield often.

As LB we could use Chiellini/Ogbonna and Peluso. That's enough tbh.

 

[GarfielD]

Diego Lopez
arbeloa ramos pepe marcelo
khedira modric
di maria isco ronaldo
benzema

according to Sky

I thought Casillas was gonna play Real's CL matches...