CERN claims faster-than-light particle measured (1 Viewer)

JuveJay

Senior Signor
Moderator
Mar 6, 2007
72,192
#1


GENEVA — A fundamental pillar of physics — that nothing can go faster than the speed of light — appears to be smashed by an oddball subatomic particle that has apparently made a giant end run around Albert Einstein's theories.

Scientists at the world's largest physics lab said Thursday they have clocked neutrinos traveling faster than light. That's something that according to Einstein's 1905 special theory of relativity — the famous E (equals) mc2 equation — just doesn't happen.

"The feeling that most people have is this can't be right, this can't be real," said James Gillies, a spokesman for the European Organization for Nuclear Research, or CERN, outside the Swiss city of Geneva.

Gillies told The Associated Press that the readings have so astounded researchers that they are asking others to independently verify the measurements before claiming an actual discovery.

"They are inviting the broader physics community to look at what they've done and really scrutinize it in great detail, and ideally for someone elsewhere in the world to repeat the measurements," he said Thursday.

Scientists at the competing Fermilab in Chicago have promised to start such work immediately.

"It's a shock," said Fermilab head theoretician Stephen Parke, who was not part of the research in Geneva. "It's going to cause us problems, no doubt about that - if it's true."

The Chicago team had similar faster-than-light results in 2007, but those came with a giant margin of error that undercut its scientific significance.

Outside scientists expressed skepticism at CERN's claim that the neutrinos — one of the strangest well-known particles in physics — were observed smashing past the cosmic speed barrier of 186,282 miles per second (299,792 kilometers per second).

University of Maryland physics department chairman Drew Baden called it "a flying carpet," something that was too fantastic to be believable.

CERN says a neutrino beam fired from a particle accelerator near Geneva to a lab 454 miles (730 kilometers) away in Italy traveled 60 nanoseconds faster than the speed of light. Scientists calculated the margin of error at just 10 nanoseconds, making the difference statistically significant. But given the enormous implications of the find, they still spent months checking and rechecking their results to make sure there was no flaws in the experiment.

"We have not found any instrumental effect that could explain the result of the measurement," said Antonio Ereditato, a physicist at the University of Bern, Switzerland, who was involved in the experiment known as OPERA.

The CERN researchers are now looking to the United States and Japan to confirm the results.

A similar neutrino experiment at Fermilab near Chicago would be capable of running the tests, said Stavros Katsanevas, the deputy director of France's National Institute for Nuclear and Particle Physics Research. The institute collaborated with Italy's Gran Sasso National Laboratory for the experiment at CERN.

Katsanevas said help could also come from the T2K experiment in Japan, though that is currently on hold after the country's devastating March 11 earthquake and tsunami.

Scientists agree if the results are confirmed, that it would force a fundamental rethink of the laws of nature.

Einstein's special relativity theory that says energy equals mass times the speed of light squared underlies "pretty much everything in modern physics," said John Ellis, a theoretical physicist at CERN who was not involved in the experiment. "It has worked perfectly up until now."

He cautioned that the neutrino researchers would have to explain why similar results weren't detected before, such as when an exploding star — or supernova — was observed in 1987.

"This would be such a sensational discovery if it were true that one has to treat it extremely carefully," said Ellis.

http://www.ajc.com/business/cern-claims-faster-than-1186724.html

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Not that it's my field of expertise, but I'm sceptical at this stage. It wouldn't be the first time that an anomalous result has happened in particle physics.

If true it would be amazing.
 

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swag

L'autista
Administrator
Sep 23, 2003
83,433
#2
Yeah, my wife just told me. Props to the CERN dudes. Maybe this will explain Einstein's "Spooky Action At A Distance". :p
 

Naggar

Bianconero
Sep 4, 2007
3,494
#8
I just heard about this today and came to post it but here it is!, thanks JJ
OK I loved maths and physics but i haven't studied any for 6 years, if this is true does it mean all Einesteins theories are now wrong (since they depend on the speed of light being the fastest) or did i get it wrong?

I need a geek to enlighten me here :D
 

ALC

Ohaulick
Oct 28, 2010
45,985
#9
I just heard about this today, thanks JJ
OK I loved maths and physics but i haven't studied any for 6 years, if this is true does it mean all Einesteins theories are now wrong (since they depend on the speed of light being the fastest) or did i get it wrong?

I need a geek to enlighten me here :D
It was probably an error, even though I made a kinda big deal about it in the religion thread. The change is in nanoseconds so I wouldn't pay much attention to it, unless it grows.
 

Naggar

Bianconero
Sep 4, 2007
3,494
#12
well even if its 0.000000000000000000000000000001 faster than light then it means light is not the fastest and there's a possibility of other things to discover, this changes a lot in modern physics and we can talk again about time travel lol
 

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L'autista
Administrator
Sep 23, 2003
83,433
#14
How the fuck is this worth the ridiculous amount of money spent of CERN?

Big fucking deal :disagree:
Because CERN is unlocking the science of how matter is put together so that generations of your kind can leverage this knowledge to unlock how to harness this for everything from transportation, mechanics, energy production, etc... so that your progenitors aren't still stuck eating rats on sticks and smearing their feces on cave walls. That's how.
 

IrishZebra

Western Imperialist
Jun 18, 2006
23,327
#15
Because CERN is unlocking the science of how matter is put together so that generations of your kind can leverage this knowledge to unlock how to harness this for everything from transportation, mechanics, energy production, etc... so that your progenitors aren't still stuck eating rats on sticks and smearing their feces on cave walls. That's how.
So we could have ended world hunger instead...
 

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L'autista
Administrator
Sep 23, 2003
83,433
#18
So what is the significance of all this?
It means that 100 years of scientific knowledge about how we thought the universe worked has proven to have what seems like exceptions to the rules we previously thought were hard rules. This fundamentally changes what we think is physically possible and calls into question how we think the world works.

This kind of stuff happens in scientific discovery on a frequent basis. But to give you a sense of how the importance of knowing how the universe works can be, discoveries at this level of this magnitude in the past have lead us to things like electricity, nuclear power and the atomic bomb.
 

acmilan

Plusvalenza Akbar
Nov 8, 2005
10,685
#19
So we could have ended world hunger instead...
the science and means to end world hunger have been around for decades now. What stands in the way is politics ... you know, the same politicians, who speak via bible quotes to their constituents, come election time ;)

So what is the significance of all this?
right now, all it means is that a team of researchers produced results, which they haven't been able to explain with a flaw in their experiment. In the years to come, provided this flaw is not discovered, other teams would have to reproduce these results with experiments of a different set up altogether, so as to eliminate flaws specific to this CERN experiment, over and over again before any of this is taken seriously. Then comes the test of nature - observe this 'faster than light' phenomenon and/or make predictions for events, to be observed later, in the biggest lab known to mankind :). If that test is passed, only then would Relativity, as it is in its current form, end up being revised.

Note the usage of the word 'revised', as opposed to a more attention-grabbing term like "shredded to bits", which is what one can read in popular media or "Sciance is wrong, God is great" in some religious journal for the factually challenged. That's because even then Relativity would be relevant - Relativity has been proven time and time again in many different experiments of different set ups - from GPS, to flying clocks on planes, to predicting, in the General form, natural phenomena like gravitational lensing, later observed in nature, to lab experiments over the course of a century.

So, all in all, in the not-so-likely event the CERN results are confirmed, years from now that is, and Relativity ends up being revised the only result of all this would be to show that there was all along something more to Relativity in the form we know it now, and what we've been treating as a 'final' form of the theory, was in fact missing an extra part to it.
That is, what we now know as Theory of Relativity would turn out to be an incomplete form/special case of a larger and more encompassing new Theory of Relativity giving us a better, fuller understanding of Causality, time travel (in theory) and such ... in no way would all this render the Sciance/Physcs done so far 'hogwash' or Einstein 'plain wrong' but merely 'incomplete' ... it's how science works - paradoxes and discoveries don't prove science/physics wrong, they just show there are new horizons to be explored and add to our existing knowledge, making it more complete and physically relevant ;)
 

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