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I'm just happy that we can discuss things in my superior society. This weird and imperfect form of democracy might not be all that grand, but it's the closest we have ever come to a legitimate government.

Not quite. That it isn't a debate in your society speaks volumes. Then again, there are no debates in your society.

That would actually be up for debate in a western society, Ze ;).

Court room security in Germany?

First thing that went through my mind, Alen :D. Not just China.

Goth and punk clothing is forbidden in some schools too.

What about these veils that cover almost the entire face? I mean you can still see their mouth and their eyes and stuff, but their entire neck is covered up to their chin. It looks very weird.

TBH I think it really does have to do with peer pressure. But even if we were all sure that it was the case, we can't prove it. And we most definitely can't forbid veils on that basis. So I think it's safer to go with other arguments here.

Freedom is never absolute. And those muslim girls would be the first to tell you that.

Just for the record: hats had always been forbidden in the school. And no, there is no difference between a hat and a veil.

It's a city.

Today there were a lot of muslim girls in front of the school in Antwerp that I told you guys about, the one that has forbidden veils. They had a couple of banners up as well "no veil, no students". They made some grammatical errors and they made some idiotic claims (such as "we're being...

Unfortunately it isn't true.

That's not why burqahs are not allowed. They are not allowed for safety reasons. People have to be recognisable. In other cases they are also not allowed because of the fear of religious extremism (which if you see people wearing burqahs is right around the corner anyway). Sarkozy might claim...

I'm going to believe the ECHR over you. And I'm talking about what the case that was argued in front of the ECHR. Not about public life in Turkey.

I completely agree with this. But like Martin says, this is about burqahs. Hijabs are a different story.

@Osman: but what came first? The chicken or the egg?

Well, I guess the Hijab issue is not as clear. TBH I have to admit that even I don't see a big problem. Like I said, situation would have to be pretty extreme. But government officials cannot show to be muslim IMO. That's a no no. If that means they can't work for the government, so be it...

Telling people to wear ONE thing or telling them NOT to wear ONE thing is a very very big difference, Fred.

It's getting worse every day. And not because people hate muslims. Far from. It's the fact that some muslim girls use it to talk about Islam. Which is not too bad, you can talk about what you want, but some of them are very, very verbal. It's not about expressing your religion anymore, it's...