Aircraft (2 Viewers)

ZoSo

TSUUUUUUU
Jul 11, 2011
41,646
#1

Zacheryah

Senior Member
Aug 29, 2010
42,251
#3
I used to spend far to many houres into defending russian military aircraft back in the day

this board has far to many americans to even consider the efford.
 
OP
ZoSo

ZoSo

TSUUUUUUU
Jul 11, 2011
41,646
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #4
    Over 12 hours and no replies :shifty: :D
    indeed

    I used to spend far to many houres into defending russian military aircraft back in the day

    this board has far to many americans to even consider the efford.
    considering russia never built any planes like the b2, f22, f117, yf23, sr71, xb70 etc us aviation is much more advanced.

    best soviet/russian planes = new t-50 pak fa, su-47 berkut, mikoyan 1.44 and t-4 (copy version of xb70 that never went above mach 1.3).
     

    Zacheryah

    Senior Member
    Aug 29, 2010
    42,251
    #5
    Depends on what you call "build". Does it require to have gone into production ?

    See here is the deal. Russia didnt have a 700billion war budged like the us. So they didnt build many carriers, or took the technology they had into production.

    Instead, they developped a much larger, superior nuclear arsenal. Even as of today, when the us is basically working with rather old tech that get an update now and then, russian icmb's allways kept beeing the prime investment. And if no one can shoot down your icmb's, why would you need bombers ?

    So lets talk jets

    So, one might say, goddamn, those Migs and Sukhoi's are like 30 years old ! And that person is partially right. Cause it wasent a true issue untill the stealth era.
    Looking at the prime of the pre f22 planes, we see that Mig31, Su27 are aerodynamically superior to their f14,15,18 couterparts, whilst having simular tracking and radar devices.

    So did russia not have stealth ? Offcourse they had, they had several excellent ready but they never purchased them. TO expensive.

    Sukhoi went the aerodynamics way. Using special painting and some kind of plasma stealth. But the prime target was vastly superior aerodynamics. Their s47 Berkut prototype, used as a building block for later , is miles ahead of a f22 in terms of aerodynamics and countermeasures.
    Sukhoi went to create a prototype that could evade long range radar guided missles, but had the agility to actually get into closer infrared range, the achillies heel of any stealth fighter that went for reduced signature.
    Furthermore it had the reknown new radar, wich can pick up objects smaller then the signature of an F22, effectively rendering their stealth useless.

    Mig went the general way, attempting to develop a jet with all the characteristics of an F22 but better agility. The1.44 project however, failed big time due to lack of funding, and in the end they actually sold it under the table to Chine for theirJ20 fighter, wich is basically became the improved copy of the f22 they were aiming at but never had the budged for.
    Thing is, that plane for all its massive agility and good shape, doesnt have the advanced electronics that Sukhoi has. So that remains to be seen how good it actually is

    From the Mig and Sukhoi projects, never put into production, then came the now greatest project they got, the PAK FA, wich will actually be brought into production !
    Its basically a plane that combines the good shape and supercruise of the Mig, but with the superior aerodynamics , advanced radar, countermeasures and electronics from the previous sukhoi's program all into one plane.

    i'm looking forward to see it go into production.
     
    OP
    ZoSo

    ZoSo

    TSUUUUUUU
    Jul 11, 2011
    41,646
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #6
    there is no proof that russian stealth was anywhere near US, even their latest most stealthy design is probably less stealthy than even f-35. so far it looks like the new chinese '5th gen' aiframes are more stealthy than russians, but that might be a conscious decision on their part rather than inability to make stealthy airframe. but you can bet the chinese planes are based off pictures and stolen data from us aicraft (i.e. hacking and espionage of f35 and b-2 programs).

    there is also no proof that any kind of plasma stealth ever went past testing stage (for both US and russians). i am talking things that have solid proof here, because otherwise there are far too many theories, conspiracies and speculations that are probably untrue or we might never know about.

    about aerodynamics, the russian planes have all this 3d thrust vectoring stuff etc that is mostly unnecessary unless you are in a dogfight, and with stealth fighters that will probably never happen, because one will detect the other first, fire its missiles then fly away. a 9g fighter is not going to be able to dodge missiles than can make 40g-50g+ turns. maybe 1 but most likely more than 1 will be fired at it, especially with datalink systems nowadays. 'new radar, wich can pick up objects smaller then the signature of an F22', this seems more like unproven theory since probably f-22 and b-2 could penetrate even against advanced sams like s-300 & s-400 through 'regular' radar scanning but there are probably other ways to detect these aircraft like infrared which you said.

    mikoyan 1.44 was more like 4.75 generation fighter and not a true 5th gen fighter. it even has canards so rcs cannot be extremely small. in terms of airframe it is like a more stealthy version of eurofighter.

    'they actually sold it under the table to Chine for theirJ20 fighter, wich is basically became the improved copy of the f22'. the chinese planes will never be better than US planes for at least a long time anyway. all knowledge they have of 5th gen aircraft they basically have from russians or us. they are a still long way behind in avionics and engines and even on 4th gen fighters are basically copied from russian designs and they still need russians to supply the engines. at the moment they are about 5th gen fighters with 4th gen avionics and engines, they are still a very long way behind. building a stealthy aiframe is much easier than perfecting the engines and avionics... they have basically had no prototypes for stealth or anything etc so even americans with all their experience still have many problems with their 5th gen planes so you can imagine chinese will have to face big problems. they are about 20-25+ years behind US at this point and russians about 10-15 years, if you consider F-22 became operational in about 05 I think. if you know, the fly off for YF22 & YF23 happened in early 1990s so that is about where chinese are at now but with much less experience than us back then except for stolen and bought info.

    the pak fa of course will be a very good plane, but the experience and operational use of us from many years before is a big advantage for them. it is not only about the planes but getting them flight time, training pilots, knowing how and when to use them, logistics, maintenance, bug fixes etc
     

    Zacheryah

    Senior Member
    Aug 29, 2010
    42,251
    #9
    there is no proof that russian stealth was anywhere near US, even their latest most stealthy design is probably less stealthy than even f-35. so far it looks like the new chinese '5th gen' aiframes are more stealthy than russians, but that might be a conscious decision on their part rather than inability to make stealthy airframe. but you can bet the chinese planes are based off pictures and stolen data from us aicraft (i.e. hacking and espionage of f35 and b-2 programs).

    there is also no proof that any kind of plasma stealth ever went past testing stage (for both US and russians). i am talking things that have solid proof here, because otherwise there are far too many theories, conspiracies and speculations that are probably untrue or we might never know about.

    about aerodynamics, the russian planes have all this 3d thrust vectoring stuff etc that is mostly unnecessary unless you are in a dogfight, and with stealth fighters that will probably never happen, because one will detect the other first, fire its missiles then fly away. a 9g fighter is not going to be able to dodge missiles than can make 40g-50g+ turns. maybe 1 but most likely more than 1 will be fired at it, especially with datalink systems nowadays. 'new radar, wich can pick up objects smaller then the signature of an F22', this seems more like unproven theory since probably f-22 and b-2 could penetrate even against advanced sams like s-300 & s-400 through 'regular' radar scanning but there are probably other ways to detect these aircraft like infrared which you said.

    mikoyan 1.44 was more like 4.75 generation fighter and not a true 5th gen fighter. it even has canards so rcs cannot be extremely small. in terms of airframe it is like a more stealthy version of eurofighter.

    'they actually sold it under the table to Chine for theirJ20 fighter, wich is basically became the improved copy of the f22'. the chinese planes will never be better than US planes for at least a long time anyway. all knowledge they have of 5th gen aircraft they basically have from russians or us. they are a still long way behind in avionics and engines and even on 4th gen fighters are basically copied from russian designs and they still need russians to supply the engines. at the moment they are about 5th gen fighters with 4th gen avionics and engines, they are still a very long way behind. building a stealthy aiframe is much easier than perfecting the engines and avionics... they have basically had no prototypes for stealth or anything etc so even americans with all their experience still have many problems with their 5th gen planes so you can imagine chinese will have to face big problems. they are about 20-25+ years behind US at this point and russians about 10-15 years, if you consider F-22 became operational in about 05 I think. if you know, the fly off for YF22 & YF23 happened in early 1990s so that is about where chinese are at now but with much less experience than us back then except for stolen and bought info.

    the pak fa of course will be a very good plane, but the experience and operational use of us from many years before is a big advantage for them. it is not only about the planes but getting them flight time, training pilots, knowing how and when to use them, logistics, maintenance, bug fixes etc
    I see you look at everything from a strong american point of view, not objective. Is this even worth the discuttion ?


    I'm just gonna point out two flaws

    1) the chineese plane is from the design russia rejected in favor of the pak fa

    2) russia is known for having superior radar and EMC. Stealth is at an end. X-band radars will get the better of it. VHF radars will get the better off it. The radars currently in the PAK FA are VHF and can detect smaller objects with smaller signature then an F22.

    The american Navi knows this. Instead of ordering the expensive F35, they went for improvements on the F18 superhornet, and are waiting on. Rightly so, considering the enormous radars those things carry with them.

    Altho US navy doesnt really got an answer for the "Sunburn" nuclear anti navel missles.

    3) 60g turns on mach 6, still leaves a massive turning circle. Coupled with highly advanced EMC, it will become near impossible to shoot down from long range. Short range is where the money is. THe f22 has less infrared signature to help itself, the PAK has much better agility.



    Now i do agree, having a working prototype is one thing, having an operational fighter is something else. Look at how the f22 still has some flaws, most recent with oxygen, and its in use since 2006? with that big budget behind it.
     

    Nzoric

    Grazie Mirko
    Jan 16, 2011
    37,748
    #12
    Zach and Zoso, what say you about the mig 35 ? I have no idea of the quality, but was surprised to see that the Russians sre willing to sell them to Serbia. I enjoy reading your explanations, is this plane any good?
     

    Nzoric

    Grazie Mirko
    Jan 16, 2011
    37,748
    #16
    Zach in particular, but Zoso seems to know his stuff too. Thats why I asked for both their perspectives. Now move on, youre not starting any forrest fires here.
     

    Zacheryah

    Senior Member
    Aug 29, 2010
    42,251
    #17
    Zach and Zoso, what say you about the mig 35 ? I have no idea of the quality, but was surprised to see that the Russians sre willing to sell them to Serbia. I enjoy reading your explanations, is this plane any good?
    These planes were made exactly for selling to a foreign, neutral market.

    Its basically an evolution of the Mig -29
    The Mig-29 was the best all weather multirole fighter around, before the stealth era. Directly competing with american F15. Pretty much the best planes around.
    Well, there were the Su27 and F18, but those are naval planes, more agile, but less range, top speed and payload, less powerfull electronics.

    They took that Mig-29, updated building materials and painting. Most important are the new engine and the radar.
    The engine, is something special. Its a very powerfull turbofan afterburner,yet very suited for all weather conditions.
    But the true masterpiece is the radar. No, its not the one that will be in the PAK FA.

    usually when planes scan around them for other planes, or "lock on" via radar signature, the locked or tracked plane can defect this radar tracking. Well this AESA radar is specially build to avoid that, enableling them to track and lock without giving away position.
    Furhtermore, its very difficult to use ECM against this type of radar. lastly it has pretty good detection limits. Should be able to spot an F35.
    The US navy uses this type of radar on their F18's aswel. Why would you need an F35 if your F18 can see it clear as day and can carry a multitude of the payload, with better agility and speed after all.

    The plane is better then any plane except an F18 and F22.
    An F22 is plain better. An F18 is better in some aspects and less in others.
    Looking at future releases, the PAK FA and J20 are better in every aspect, but it could take over a decade before those come out.


    However, you might wonder, why does russia sells this advanced tech ? WHile it doesnt have better planes ?

    Well quite simply, russia is going to replace everything with Sukhoi PAK FA's. That plane is superior in every aspect to the Mig. But the Sukhoi program isnt cheap so they need to fund it somehow.

    To fund it, they sold Mig project 1.44 to china, and its predecessor, the Mig35 to other country's
     

    ALC

    Ohaulick
    Oct 28, 2010
    45,967
    #18
    idk zach, i don't think any place can hang with US when it comes to technology, especially aircraft. why do nuclear missiles even come into discussion?
     

    Zacheryah

    Senior Member
    Aug 29, 2010
    42,251
    #19
    idk zach, i don't think any place can hang with US when it comes to technology, especially aircraft. why do nuclear missiles even come into discussion?
    There are two key diffrences between USA and Russia

    1) USA pours 700billion into their warbudget, so that the prototypes they come up with are actually build for production. Russia stopt doing this since the cold war
    2) USA focussed on stealth technology. Russia focussed on better electronics and aerodynamics

    Result was actually, before the F22, that there was allways a more potent russian equivalent. So why does someone like you think, "but usa is more advanced" ?

    Quite simple, because of war. Every time usa goes to war, the country they invade has old technology. Its never up to date

    Its been like this since forever. How many times was it actually up to date Mig 29's versus F15's ? Or Sukhoi Su-27 (the best plane ever) against F14 or F18 ?
    Never, its allways that same old crap.


    In agility, Russia has allways been top dog. Since forever really, especially with the Su27 generation. They could allmost fly circles around their counterparts. For a fraction of the cost.

    USA pours into stealth, whilst russia keeps on going pure aerodynamics, and everything into developping radar and emc.

    Just look it up, u'll find tons of articles about how western military journalists fear those state of the art radar tech.

    Look at those VHF mobile installations they send to china. Those are enough to shoot down everything thats not a B-2.
    If x-band radar development comes to point, forget about B-2 aswel.



    Why i mention Nuclear ? Cause quite simply it overrules everything
     

    ALC

    Ohaulick
    Oct 28, 2010
    45,967
    #20
    yeah but nuclear missiles aren't that hard to make and almost everyone can have them. not to mention the chances of them being used are pretty fuckin low.
     

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