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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elvin View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but that post ^ is considered an actual crime in Turkey, no?
    Yes. Main reason why biggest lie ever told keep living after all those years.

    Quote Originally Posted by jussr View Post
    Without him the economic boom in Turkey would not be possible and sharia would still be in practice. Ethnic cleansing is a bad thing but as a consequence of this Turkey got a strong government that was able to make reforms. And religion doesn't have a place in politics so here I support him 100%.
    Without him and his retarded, backward politics, Turkey would be a world power. Religion have a place in hearts of people so he has decided to put a dagger in heart of a nation when he realized he can't remove it without killing.

    Quote Originally Posted by jussr View Post
    He made a strong Turkey by ethnic cleansing and removal of Greeks from Turkey (not a good thing in general but for Turkey is good) and banished religion from politics as it should be. He made Turkey a modern country.
    Not only ethnic but also a religious cleansing. Considering whole populace was religious in that time, he sure cleansed a lot. Started with hanging those who don't wear hat. Thousands of murdering have followed. Guy himself was a Jew and mason you wonder why some are calling him ancestor of Turks.

  2. #42
    Harold Finch Martin's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReBeL View Post
    Stoning? in 2011? Give me one example.
    Two men, aged 20 and 21, were condemned to be stoned for sodomy in January 2011 following evidence on their mobile phones of them having sex with a 17-year-old. It was reported that the youth was $#@!d, amid claims he was pressured by police to give evidence in exchange for his life. Date of execution was set for 21 January 2011.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital...n_Iran#Stoning

    Whether that is sharia or not you can decide for yourself. As for where people get this impression, it's from the news, yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesio View Post
    Have no idea !!

  3. #43
    Juventuz bench jussr's Avatar

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    Even if Ataturk tried a religious cleansing (don't buy it) he wasn't very successful Turkey is a muslim nation and will always be. But he succeeded in taking the power from religious fanatics and this is great. Turkey would be a backwards country in economic isolation without him.

  4. #44
    Western Imperialist IrishZebra's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReBeL View Post
    So, you respect him because he used ethnic cleansing and because he fought against religion? Pardon me, but those are two horrible things that can be done by any stupid dictator. I'm talking about real achievments. Let's talk about economy for example.
    How is secularising politics a horrible thing?
    In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by jussr View Post
    Even if Ataturk tried a religious cleansing (don't buy it) he wasn't very successful Turkey is a muslim nation and will always be. But he succeeded in taking the power from religious fanatics and this is great. Turkey would be a backwards country in economic isolation without him.
    Economic isolation was his idea. His minions followed it until 80's. They didn't know there is a world outside of borders. Ottoman economy was much more free.

  6. #46
    The Jackal

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    Quote Originally Posted by jussr View Post
    From 2010 but I searched only 2 minutes:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/17/wo...17stoning.html
    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Two men, aged 20 and 21, were condemned to be stoned for sodomy in January 2011 following evidence on their mobile phones of them having sex with a 17-year-old. It was reported that the youth was $#@!d, amid claims he was pressured by police to give evidence in exchange for his life. Date of execution was set for 21 January 2011.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital...n_Iran#Stoning

    Whether that is sharia or not you can decide for yourself. As for where people get this impression, it's from the news, yes.
    If you think Taliban and Iran are the places where Sharia is applied, then I understand you. By the way, Saudi Arabia also does not apply Sharia. There is no country that applies Sharia right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by IrishZebra View Post
    How is secularising politics a horrible thing?
    Shouldn't freedom of belief be respected? Is that what Ataturk did?

  7. #47
    Western Imperialist IrishZebra's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReBeL View Post
    Shouldn't freedom of belief be respected? Is that what Ataturk did?
    You're confusing the freedom to believe with a freedom to put that into practice in government. Government is not a belief system, it is a set of institutions designed to allow people to live their lives. It is the highest authority in a country,not God. This is what democracy is all about, the rule of the people by the whim of the majority.

    Attaturk was a war criminal.
    In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by IrishZebra View Post
    You're confusing the freedom to believe with a freedom to put that into practice in government. Government is not a belief system, it is a set of institutions designed to allow people to live their lives. It is the highest authority in a country,not God. This is what democracy is all about, the rule of the people by the whim of the majority.

    Attaturk was a war criminal.
    I know what a government is. Ataturk did not allow normal people to believe in whatever they want.

  9. #49
    Harold Finch Martin's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReBeL View Post
    If you think Taliban and Iran are the places where Sharia is applied, then I understand you. By the way, Saudi Arabia also does not apply Sharia. There is no country that applies Sharia right now.
    If there is no country that applies it then why did you ask us to give you an example from 2011? You contradict yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesio View Post
    Have no idea !!

  10. #50
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    Ataturk's biggest mistake was the overthrown of the arabic alphabet and setting the latin alphabet as the national alphabet. In the following years the Arabic and Farsi words which have a crucial impact and effect in Ottoman arts,law and science are banned and meaningless and synthetic Turkish words are created. But this is not the way a language evolve. If you throw the Latin originated words from the western european languages there will be barely a language exists. Another side effect of this situation is the termination of the connection between the modern Turkish people and their past. We can't understand a writing which is written a century ago. This is an enormous cultural loss and lost of the cultural base. In my opinion the finest art in the world from the beginning is the sufi poems that I cannot understand. An Englishman can read and enjoy Shakespeare but I cannot even read the legendary Leila and Majnun story from Fuzuli.
    Last edited by phoibos; 01.08.2011 at 18:30.
    YRRRAKKAFASI BALOTELLİ!!!!!

  11. #51
    Western Imperialist IrishZebra's Avatar

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    What Del Piero does with a football is the finest art in the world.
    In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

  12. #52
    Primavera player phoibos's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by IrishZebra View Post
    What Del Piero does with a football is the finest art in the world.
    I automatically excluded this fact as a Juventino
    YRRRAKKAFASI BALOTELLİ!!!!!

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoibos View Post
    Ataturk's biggest mistake was the overthrown of the arabic alphabet and setting the latin alphabet as the national alphabet. In the following years the Arabic and Farsi words which have a crucial impact and effect in Ottoman arts,law and science are banned and meaningless and synthetic Turkish words are created. But this is not the way a language evolve. If you throw the Latin originated words from the western european languages there will be barely a language exists. Another side effect of this situation is the termination of the connection between the modern Turkish people and their past. We can't understand a writing which is written a century ago. This is an enormous cultural loss and lost of the cultural base. In my opinion the finest art in the world from the beginning is the sufi poems that I cannot understand. An Englishman can read and enjoy Shakespeare but I cannot even read the legendary Leila and Majnun story from Fuzuli.
    It was not a mistake. His purpose was making people unable to read Qur'an and their history. Those who can't read history had no choice but believe in ''official history'' written by him.

  14. #54
    Grazie Ale blondu's Avatar

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    didn't knew ataturk done more harm than good..that's why talking and reading opinions from people from that place always helps
    Un cavaliere non lascia mai una Signora

  15. #55
    Primavera player phoibos's Avatar

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    Ataturk and İttihat ve Terrakki Fırkası (Unity and Progress Party) in 2nd constitutional Ottoman era developed some ideologies in order to modernize the country with good feelings but they couldn't foresee the world todat. Their applications are natural when you observe the fascist states in europe and notice that ottoman empire is closer to germany than any other countries after WW1 and before and during WW2.
    Last edited by phoibos; 01.08.2011 at 21:14.
    YRRRAKKAFASI BALOTELLİ!!!!!

  16. #56
    Juventuz legend Alen's Avatar
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    I wouldn't call what Ataturk did with the Greeks an "ethnic cleansing".

  17. #57
    Juventuz legend Alen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turk_Bianconero View Post
    Without him and his retarded, backward politics, Turkey would be a world power.
    Nope, it wasn't gonna be a world power. The Great Powers controlled everything in the Ottoman Empire. Absolutely everything. They could do whatever they want with it and they were doing whatever they wanted. The opposite interest of the Great Powers, the British fear of Russia controlling the Bosphorus and the big market the Empire was to Germany were what was keeping the Ottoman Empire alive. But the fact is that it could never do something on its own and the Great Powers were never gonna allow Turkey to become a world power, with or without Ataturk.

  18. #58
    Primavera player phoibos's Avatar

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    The Russian Revolution in 1917 saved Turkey's ass. Without saving the eastern borders against Russians the reconquest of Anatolia and Istanbul would have been nothing but a dream.
    YRRRAKKAFASI BALOTELLİ!!!!!

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alen View Post
    Nope, it wasn't gonna be a world power. The Great Powers controlled everything in the Ottoman Empire. Absolutely everything. They could do whatever they want with it and they were doing whatever they wanted. The opposite interest of the Great Powers, the British fear of Russia controlling the Bosphorus and the big market the Empire was to Germany were what was keeping the Ottoman Empire alive. But the fact is that it could never do something on its own and the Great Powers were never gonna allow Turkey to become a world power, with or without Ataturk.
    They were never gonna allow Turkey to become a world power so they put Mustafa Kemal and his minions in charge as jailors, a control mechanism. Today, things are not like in 100 years ago. There are no great powers who are controlling everything and Turkiye have enough potential to become a world power without kemalizm.

  20. #60
    Grazie Ale blondu's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turk_Bianconero View Post
    They were never gonna allow Turkey to become a world power so they put Mustafa Kemal and his minions in charge as jailors, a control mechanism. Today, things are not like in 100 years ago. There are no great powers who are controlling everything and Turkiye have enough potential to become a world power without kemalizm.
    cough SUA and Mother Bear
    Un cavaliere non lascia mai una Signora

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