Israeli-Palestinian conflict - News and Politics - Juventuz Forums - Page 627

View Poll Results: Is Hamas a Terrorist Organization?

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  • Yes

    33 42.31%
  • No

    38 48.72%
  • Should there be a Jewish nation SOMEWHERE in the world?

    0 0%
  • Yes

    34 43.59%
  • No

    37 47.44%
  • Should Israel be a country located in the region it is right now?

    0 0%
  • Yes

    26 33.33%
  • No

    47 60.26%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1. #12521
    PEACE BE UPON YOU AndreaCristiano's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by BayernFan View Post
    Its the victime role. And many Europeans buy totally into that crap.
    And half of the US population.
    "Of all ignorance, the ignorance of the educated is the most dangerous. Not only are educated people likely to have more influence, they are the last people to suspect that they don't know what they are talking about when they go outside their narrow fields." THOMAS SOWELL

  2. #12522
    PEACE BE UPON YOU AndreaCristiano's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nzoric View Post
    Why does revisionism make you sad?

    Sendt fra min SM-G930F med Tapatalk
    Because it’s bull$#@!. Changing history to fit a modern narrative
    "Of all ignorance, the ignorance of the educated is the most dangerous. Not only are educated people likely to have more influence, they are the last people to suspect that they don't know what they are talking about when they go outside their narrow fields." THOMAS SOWELL

  3. #12523
    Juventuz legend king Ale's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndreaCristiano View Post
    Very good post.
    The summary of my post was that Israeli government is committing crimes.
    289[+2]

    “Hope” is the thing with feathers -
    That perches in the soul -
    And sings the tune without the words -
    And never stops - at all -


    قالوا الم تکن ارض الله واسعة فتهاجروا فیها

  4. #12524
    PEACE BE UPON YOU AndreaCristiano's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by king Ale View Post
    The summary of my post was that Israeli government is committing crimes.
    I know. It was still a good post. Like I said. I know Israel has made mistakes and has committed crimes yet so has Palestine and its leaders and those connected to them
    "Of all ignorance, the ignorance of the educated is the most dangerous. Not only are educated people likely to have more influence, they are the last people to suspect that they don't know what they are talking about when they go outside their narrow fields." THOMAS SOWELL

  5. #12525
    Diez GordoDeCentral's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Linebreak View Post
    As I said, that's as simple as the entire matter is, and Israeli's are terrified of people learning about the simplicity of the matter because it means they have zero moral leg to stand on and everything else is just noise. Israel is an occupying European force - just look at all the Israeli leaders, their ancestry comes from various parts of the former Russian empire, Poland, other parts of Europe etc.
    Netenyahu's ancestory is Polish-Russian. Ben Gurion was Polish. But oh, apparently, some of their ancestors lived in Palestine 2000 years ago, so they have some sort of right to come in and kill everyone, even though most Russian Jews are actually Askhenazi, not ethnically Hebrew, rather, Jewish converts. Even if we give them the 2000 year old story, if I remember correctly David defeated Goliath the Palestinian, so even the Hebrews are outsiders?

    All the other crap Israelis throw out there, like terrorism, is just noise to legitimise themselves. Just like Apartheid, their farcical state will eventually fall in a heap. It's not a sustainable model and never will be.
    A lot of needless innocent blood will be shed before then of course.
    I am one of Israels biggest critics and anyone who stands by Israel on moral grounds is either a crazy zealot, a racist or both BUT we are discussing this very particular situation of people storming borders, whether you agree or not with the border is irrelevant, if you attack a military post you will get shot. These are not protests, this an altar where Palestinian lives are sacrificed to the social media gods, and i hold hamas responsible in this case.
    Und alles, was man weiss, nicht bloss rauschen und brausen gehört hat, lässt sich in drei Worten sagen.

  6. #12526
    PEACE BE UPON YOU AndreaCristiano's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by GordoDeCentral View Post
    I am one of Israels biggest critics and anyone who stands by Israel on moral grounds is either a crazy zealot, a racist or both BUT we are discussing this very particular situation of people storming borders, whether you are out not with the border is irrelevant, if you attack a military post you will get shot. These are not protests, this an altar where Palestinian lives are sacrificed to the social media gods, and i hold hamas responsible in this case.
    In truth you are correct. If hamas truly wanted a solution they would have used some diplomacy and serious negotiations to maybe speak to the issue. Yet sending people basically to their death to push their agenda is plain as day. They care neither for their people nor actual Palestine.
    "Of all ignorance, the ignorance of the educated is the most dangerous. Not only are educated people likely to have more influence, they are the last people to suspect that they don't know what they are talking about when they go outside their narrow fields." THOMAS SOWELL

  7. #12527
    Juventuz regular Tomice's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by king Ale View Post
    You don't see them as adults who have the capacity to choose for themselves. If you did, you wouldn't be able to separate them from Hamas. I understand why one would want to make that distinction though. Nobody buys calling a people a bunch of savage bloodthristy terrorists, so it's easier to target a small group (i.e., Hamas), claim that THEY are responsible for the grim situation there, and frame dead people as unfortunate collateral damage. I'm not saying you make the distinction for that purpose, but your government does and that works.

    Nope, not better now. I don't even understand how you can be so sure about what drives and motivates other people to make certain decisions. Maybe you are brainwashed by the Israeli propaganda to believe that? How is that less likely than your thesis?


    Ever since the beginning of the protests, the point I've been making here is that there is one group to blame, and that's the one that kills. You cannot blame Hamas/people and be upset about the lost lives, because they got what they deserved after all, fully aware of the consequences of their actions. Since when is the death of a person who intends to harm other people and is shot by the police upsetting us? I don't get it.

    I 100% meant it. Stop killing the people.

    As an Iranian, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been a relevant topic throughout my adult life. My hatred for the ruling regime in Iran has made it difficult for me to sympathize with and find reason in anything they are supporting and promoting. Also, those who know me know that I'm not a person seeing the world as extreme black vs extreme white. But among all the issues that I have an opinion on, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has become the most binary one during all these years. I understand that what's going there is a result of one group having completely outpowered the other, but this power imbalance has inevitably led to clearly defined (for me) rights and wrongs in this conflict.
    I don't see the point in responding to my arguments with the exactly the same arguments I was responding to in the first place, also I think I made it pretty clear that I do separate Hamas from the people so it's a bit of a strawman argument there. I absolutely stand by my view that the PLO and Hamas don't serve the best interest of the palestinian people, there is just no logical or rational way to make that claim and hold it to the test of reality.

    I guess it just leaves us with respectfully agreeing to disagree.

    With that being said and much more importantly, regarding the bolded part I hope to god I am right and you are wrong about them. Because if you are right then this all conflict is going to end very badly for one of us. I prefer my version of reality much better, for both Israel and palestine sake.

  8. #12528
    Juventuz champion Ronn's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maddy View Post
    Oh dear. The Colossus of Enlightenment just entered the thread.


  9. #12529
    MAGISTERIAL AFL_ITALIA's Avatar

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    I see that this was handled but the questions are still avoided.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BayernFan View Post
    Because they seek the conflict.
    No no, go back to the start of it, not this particular incident. Ask yourself, what sort of treatment does it take for a population to elect what would be considered a terrorist organization into power for protection?

    "Juventus is not just a football club, it's a way of understanding life. ~Italo Pietra

    Quote Originally Posted by Gagi View Post
    They want money, dunno why,
    'cause I want a loan with an option to buy

  10. #12530
    Juventuz regular Tomice's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by AFL_ITALIA View Post
    I see that this was handled but the questions are still avoided.

    - - - Updated - - -



    No no, go back to the start of it, not this particular incident. Ask yourself, what sort of treatment does it take for a population to elect what would be considered a terrorist organization into power for protection?



    You are aware those maps are bogus right?

  11. #12531
    MAGISTERIAL AFL_ITALIA's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomice View Post


    You are aware those maps are bogus right?
    How so? No, I'm not aware.
    "Juventus is not just a football club, it's a way of understanding life. ~Italo Pietra

    Quote Originally Posted by Gagi View Post
    They want money, dunno why,
    'cause I want a loan with an option to buy

  12. #12532
    Juventuz legend king Ale's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndreaCristiano View Post
    I know. It was still a good post. Like I said. I know Israel has made mistakes and has committed crimes yet so has Palestine and its leaders and those connected to them
    I was describing what a person with a lack of morals (in my opinion of course) would subscribe to. You thought those were my opinions and liked my post. Judging by your other posts in the last few pages, there's nothing in my post for you to like. It would have been much better if you had just said you misunderstood me rather than "it was still a good post". Nothing was good for you there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tomice View Post
    With that being said and much more importantly, regarding the bolded part I hope to god I am right and you are wrong about them. Because if you are right then this all conflict is going to end very badly for one of us. I prefer my version of reality much better, for both Israel and palestine sake.
    Hamas is an effect, was created as such. It cannot be the root cause of the problem. Like I said, they wouldn't have been operating to this date if your government hadn't enabled them.

    As for the bold part, lol why? Isn't a brainwashed people the most wretched and hopeless of them?
    289[+2]

    “Hope” is the thing with feathers -
    That perches in the soul -
    And sings the tune without the words -
    And never stops - at all -


    قالوا الم تکن ارض الله واسعة فتهاجروا فیها

  13. #12533
    PEACE BE UPON YOU AndreaCristiano's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by king Ale View Post
    I was describing what a person with a lack of morals (in my opinion of course) would subscribe to. You thought those were my opinions and liked my post. Judging by your other posts in the last few pages, there's nothing in my post for you to like. It would have been much better if you had just said you misunderstood me rather than "it was still a good post". Nothing was good for you there.




    Hamas is an effect, was created as such. It cannot be the root cause of the problem. Like I said, they wouldn't have been operating to this date if your government hadn't enabled them.

    As for the bold part, lol why? Isn't a brainwashed people the most wretched and hopeless of them?
    The post was good because you were describing what your viewpoint was without disparaging the person with the opposing view unlike some in here. Your post could be related too even by those who do not share your beliefs
    "Of all ignorance, the ignorance of the educated is the most dangerous. Not only are educated people likely to have more influence, they are the last people to suspect that they don't know what they are talking about when they go outside their narrow fields." THOMAS SOWELL

  14. #12534
    Juventuz regular Tomice's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by AFL_ITALIA View Post
    How so? No, I'm not aware.
    the first map, labeled “1946”, is actually a map of what the League of Nations in the 1920s predicted Palestine would be like in 1946. I don't trust maps that rely on on the future. It's worth noting that the british mandate of palestine was actually much bigger originally and 70% of it was already been given to Jordan in the late 20's.

    Beyond that it's intentionally mislabels the division between jew and arabs who both were referred to as palestinians at the time by the brits. The actual map this first map is misrepresenting includes a third category, called "public land" which is basically government owned land. The true division was that just 40% was privately owned by arabs, 10% by jews and 50% was british owned.

    The second map is just irrelevant in this context. Why is the UN partition plan, which was accepted by the Jews but was never implemented because it was rejected by the arabs, part of this sequence? A plan that never happened cannot be considered an accurate depiction of reality because it never was. The arabs were supposed to get 47% of the land (similar to what they owned) but they rejected it and declared a war.

    The third map attributes sovereignty to the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. It would be hard to claim that the West Bank and the Gaza Strip were sovereign Palestinian lands from 1949 to 1967. Seeing as Jordan annexed the West Bank in 1950 and held onto it until 1967, it’s clear that this land was not Palestinian. Likewise, the Gaza Strip was under Egyptian military control for the large majority of that period. Why didn't they asked for independence from either Jordan or Egypt btw? two countries who "supposedly" fought for their cause in 48'

    The fourth map is an accurate representation of Israeli and Palestinian sovereignty so far as I can tell, but its context has been completely hijacked by the inaccurate maps that precede it. Again we are talking about temporary sovereignty alone and not actual land appropriation. The settlements today are around 6-7% of the land in the west bank not the whole white thing.

  15. #12535
    PEACE BE UPON YOU AndreaCristiano's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomice View Post
    the first map, labeled “1946”, is actually a map of what the League of Nations in the 1920s predicted Palestine would be like in 1946. I tend to trust map that rely on the past or present rather than the future. It's worth noting that the british mandate of palestine was actually much bigger originally and 70% of it was already been given to Jordan in the late 20's.

    Beyond that it's intentionally mislabels the division between jew and arabs who both were referred to as palestinians at the time by the brits. The actual map this first map is misrepresenting includes a third category, called "public land" which is basically government owned land. The true division was that just 40% was privately owned by arabs, 10% by jews and 50% was british owned.

    The second map is just irrelevant in this context. Why is the UN partition plan, which was accepted by the Jews but was never implemented because it was rejected by the arabs, part of this sequence? A plan that was never realized cannot be considered an historically accurate depiction of reality because it never historically was. The arabs were supposed to get 47% of the land (similar to what they owned) but they rejected it and declared a war.

    The third map attributes sovereignty to the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. It would be hard to claim that the West Bank and the Gaza Strip were sovereign Palestinian lands from 1949 to 1967. Seeing as Jordan annexed the West Bank in 1950 and held onto it until 1967, it’s clear that this land was not Palestinian. Likewise, the Gaza Strip was under Egyptian military control for the large majority of that period. Why didn't they asked for independence from either Jordan or Egypt btw?

    The fourth map is an accurate representation of Israeli and Palestinian sovereignty so far as I can tell, but its context has been completely hijacked by the inaccurate maps that precede it. Again we are talking about temporary sovereignty alone and not actual land appropriation. The settlements today are around 6-7% of the land in the west bank.
    Very impressive!
    "Of all ignorance, the ignorance of the educated is the most dangerous. Not only are educated people likely to have more influence, they are the last people to suspect that they don't know what they are talking about when they go outside their narrow fields." THOMAS SOWELL

  16. #12536
    Juventuz regular Tomice's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by king Ale View Post
    I was describing what a person with a lack of morals (in my opinion of course) would subscribe to. You thought those were my opinions and liked my post. Judging by your other posts in the last few pages, there's nothing in my post for you to like. It would have been much better if you had just said you misunderstood me rather than "it was still a good post". Nothing was good for you there.




    Hamas is an effect, was created as such. It cannot be the root cause of the problem. Like I said, they wouldn't have been operating to this date if your government hadn't enabled them.

    As for the bold part, lol why? Isn't a brainwashed people the most wretched and hopeless of them?
    No one said it was the root cause,

    And it's really not that complicated. If Hamas goals and the palestinians people goals are the same then there is no hope for peace, I find the cause for that totally irrelevant.

  17. #12537
    Juventuz legend Linebreak's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by BayernFan View Post
    So much occupying that they plenty of times offered the Palestinians their land



    But but but its always those $#@!ing Israelis faulth!!!!
    They offered Palestinians their land? Empty offers mean nothing. The reality is they have continually been swallowing up more and more Palestinian land on a daily basis since the late 40s.

    Quote Originally Posted by AndreaCristiano View Post
    The narrative now is that Israel is the enemy while Palestine is the oppressed. It’s sad because it’s revisionist.
    That's not a narrative, that's always been the reality (unless you're a Zionist).
    Israel was established by armed Zionists massacring and wiping out entire Palestinian areas - that's fact.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomice View Post
    No one said it was the root cause,

    And it's really not that complicated. If Hamas goals and the palestinians people goals are the same then there is no hope for peace, I find the cause for that totally irrelevant.
    Your posts are straight out of the Hasbara manuals, word for word.

    This line here is like "I killed his parents, his kids, his relatives, his friends, took all his property, and then kept beating him until he reacted, he obviously doesn't want peace that violent crazed man, why would he react, must be his backward religion!"

    It's wonderful how Israel always uses Hamas as the boogeyman, ignoring the Elephant in the room, their armed to the teeth military who has continuously been taking lives and land since the establishment of their state.

  18. #12538
    Moggi on crack -=DJANGO=-'s Avatar

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    But, but Israel is peaceful and democratic! They want to bomb Iran now(well, if the USoA vassal can't do the job alone) in the name of world peace. What good is it to have more nuclear plants or bombs? I mean Israel has a lot of them, but they are peaceful bombs. Those bombs are used just as a tool for negotiations and officially no one even admits to them. On the other hand given their numbers, if they were to be used for war there would hardly be anyone left to negotiate with. That's Peace Plan B.

    At least they have their cultural and royal ally in the house of Saud.

    Maybe they will share the 'gay' capital and fests between Tel Aviv and Riyadh?
    ADP#10

  19. #12539
    In bocca al lupo, Fabio. Seven's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndreaCristiano View Post
    In truth you are correct. If hamas truly wanted a solution they would have used some diplomacy and serious negotiations to maybe speak to the issue. Yet sending people basically to their death to push their agenda is plain as day. They care neither for their people nor actual Palestine.

    The disgrace is that sending them to the border equals sending them to their deaths. Stop acting as if the border is a cliff they send people to. They're not telling people to jump off. These people are getting murdered. The main culprit will always be the murderer. Ffs, I can't believe I even have to explain this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by AndreaCristiano View Post
    The narrative now is that Israel is the enemy while Palestine is the oppressed. It’s sad because it’s revisionist.
    Lol, what? How is it revisionist?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BayernFan View Post
    Its the victime role. And many Europeans buy totally into that crap.
    The entire reason Israel exists is because we saw the Israelis as victims.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by AndreaCristiano View Post
    THE COUNTERFEIT ARABS: THERE IS NO "HISTORIC" PALESTINE: There is no such thing as a Palestinian people; no such thing as a Palestinian history; and no Palestinian language exists. There has never been any independent, sovereign Palestinian state in all of recorded history – let alone an Arab independent state of Palestine. You will search in vain for Palestinian Arab coinage or Palestinian Arab archaeological artifacts specifically related to any Palestinian Arab king or ancient leader. But what you will find are coins, pottery, ancient scrolls, all providing conclusive, empirical and millennial evidence of Jewish civilization dotting the land known correctly as Israel – not Palestine. The present-day so-called “Palestinians” are an Arab people sharing an overwhelmingly Muslim Arab culture, ethnicity and language identical to their fellow Arabs in the Middle East and North Africa, with few if any distinctions.
    Oh man.. You can't.. You just can't do that. You don't have to go very far back in history to say there are no United States. Surely you won't find "coins, pottery or ancient scrolls" talking about a shared American culture. If we're going to talk history and think of this as the only relevant factor in nation building, I am going to have to invite you and about 300 million other people to $#@! off and leave the US.

    Whether or not there was a kingdom of Israel in the year 0 doesn't matter. What matters is what was there in 1945. And it sure as $#@! wasn't Israel.
    Quote Originally Posted by pitbull View Post
    biathlon is one of the rare sports I enjoy

  20. #12540
    Juventuz legend Fred's Avatar

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    I prefer not to get into these arguments to be honest, especially as you have two people in Bayernfan and AC that obviously don't even know what they're talking about, but this just cracked me up

    Quote Originally Posted by king Ale View Post
    The summary of my post was that Israeli government is committing crimes.
    for every action there is a reaction equal in magnitude and opposite in direction

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