Is this the dip? (1 Viewer)

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
#1
With Ranieri's appointment made official, it's time for me to ask a question that was going to come up sooner or later.

When I started cheering on Juve in 95, we were doing well. It was Lippi's second season, we had the scudetto and we won the CL. Of course, since then most of our history is centered around Lippi. We did have a crisis in 98-01, the unfortunate Ancelotti period. But even then we twice barely missed out on the title and had an utmost competitive squad. Then Lippi returned, we went back to winning, and of course with Capello as well. All through this time I always knew there would be a time when we wouldn't be a top team anymore. If you look at the historical perspective, this happens to every club.

86-94 was the most recent such period, without a scudetto and with only two Uefa Cups. If you go further back there are more of these lows. It's normal, it's bound to happen at some point. The winning cycle will eventually end, and without a very dynamic and wise rebuilding effort, it's inevitable.

Are we entering our next major dip now? Are we going to see a few years in the wilderness? Our squad full of international champions was broken up last year. Of the ones we still have they're all aging, and Buffon might very well leave us. Almost all our best players are past the peak of their careers. And the ones we've signed to fill the gaps (Marchionni, Zanetti, Balzaretti, Boumsong, Palladino etc) aren't about to launch a major offensive Kaka style. In fact, we should be counting down the months till Nedved and Del Piero run out of gas, still two of our crucial players.

We've talked about a rejuvenation before, and it hasn't come. Entering Capello's cadence it was pushed back for a couple more years of glory, and we had them. But Thuram was aging, and we didn't replace him with an equivalent player. Now he's not even here anymore. We worried about the long term future under Capello and Calciopoli saw to it that we would have bigger problems to worry about. But it's staring us in the face now more than ever. The one player we currently have who is young enough to spearhead a revolution and win with a new set of players is Buffon. (Technically also Trezeguet, but he seems to be so dejected that it doesn't fill me with hope.)

And very plainly, the transfer objectives cited by the new leadership haven't exactly excited us much either, they've been very modest, and at a time when we need transfers very badly.

Obviously, strategy begins at the top. Deschamps was a wildcard, a young coach without a long track record that you might hope would strike luck. And he did coach a complete outsider to a CL final let's not forget. We said he's good with young players, perhaps that can be our way out. But he was dismissed in a pretty surprising move. Meanwhile, our new leadership scrambled for a replacement and just didn't have one. It's been a while since we've had to search this hard to actually find a new coach, at least from what I recall. The management didn't seem to have any post-Deschamps plan, they wanted Lippi but he wasn't willing. And finally, after considering what seemed to be a series of coincidental he's-available-now options, none of which inspired great faith, they settled on Ranieri. Ranieri, who is a seasoned coach without any big trophies to his name. Neither the young-we-hope-he's-good nor the just-look-at-his-merits profile. Ranieri, who seems to be a coach along the lines of our transfer strategy lately, very understated.

Personally I can't recall when the prospects were bleaker. We have an aged squad with several players who want to leave for more competitive teams and a supporting cast mediocre by Serie A standards. And it's only been a year since we had the very best under Capello.
 

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Red

-------
Moderator
Nov 26, 2006
47,024
#3
There is certainly going to be a few lean years for Juve in which we will have to build up again to be one of the top teams in Europe.

It is starting to appear Gigi will stay which would be great.

This summer we can start to replace some of the players that left last year and then next summer we can worry about Neddy and Alex.

One positive is that we have a number of younsters coming through who are now ready to help, even if next season they won't be able to take too muh responsibility.
 

Bozi

The Bozman
Administrator
Oct 18, 2005
22,740
#4
football is all about cycles, well thought out post there martin.

all we can do is stay loyal to this wonderful football club, sure it is not gonna be easy to fans who have been drip-fed success over the years, but that is where loyal fans stand unwavering in their support. time will tell how long it will take "new Juve" to earn the trophies and the plaudits of their predecessors but one thing s for sure, i will be there relishing every success, supporting them through every blip and loyal till the end
 

Azzurri7

Pinturicchio
Moderator
Dec 16, 2003
72,692
#5
IMO, it all depend on the up-coming year. If we manage to make a good year, and by saying good year I mean (to either finish 1st or 2nd in serie a, and to reach coppa final) then we're back on track.

If we fail to take CL spot then I'll admit we're in crisis. so far I cant really tell our team is entering a crisis. we're back from serie b, we're supposed to keep climbing, not going down.

so all in all, i'm waiting for the up-coming year and then judge, still to early to predict if thats the dip or not.
 

Stephan

Senior Member
Nov 9, 2005
16,376
#6
i am not concerned about ranieri, but i am though concerned about secco, he really seems like someone from whom you dont know what can you expect, and that saying in a bad way.
 

C4ISR

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2005
2,362
#7
They way I look at it, considering the past year, there is nowhere to go but up. It will take us a few seasons to get back where we were, with a squad of world class talent and a decent bench. Juventus will survive, and come out stronger because of it. Through all the shit thats happened at Juventus, Ive never seen Juve fans more united than they are now.
 

Cronios

Juventolog
Jun 7, 2004
27,412
#8
The signs are all here, we are going down and the only thing that would stop it,
is a new owner...

PS technically, yes an average mid-table serie A team is in a better situation than the serie b champion, but dont forget we got there by a penalty,
but now, it seems that we will reach position 5-8# very naturally,
the times ahead of us are the most difficult,
we are about to change coach every year and maybe even half of our main players (like every other average serie a team does)
 
Jul 24, 2006
381
#9
Good post dude.

I think Juve has a structure already in place in terms of youth players, fan base and international 'brand' that will ensure any (further!) alarming dip(s) won't happen..

Even when we were considered in top under Lippi/Ancelotti we still had some lean years there. We all prob remember us bringing in the likes of Fonseca and Paramatti.. Those were some alarming transfers! I think Grygera and Salihamadzic are def a cut above these and even if we are restricted to some shrewd transfer operating for a while this is preferable to the 1-star-a-year pseudo-galactico policy as we had developed with Capello = all stars and no heart.

We must look at the rebuilding as a positive thing. The clouds of doping and now Calciopoli have hung over us for many years and now we can operate without these doubts off the field.

This cycle has only begun in earnest but I think we are moving in the right directions project-wise. On the field I just hope above all to see again the positive, never-say-die football that attracted us all to Juve in the first place - it's been a while..!
 

Ramin

vBookie Champion
Nov 18, 2003
4,728
#10
IMO, it all depend on the up-coming year. If we manage to make a good year, and by saying good year I mean (to either finish 1st or 2nd in serie a, and to reach coppa final) then we're back on track.

If we fail to take CL spot then I'll admit we're in crisis. so far I cant really tell our team is entering a crisis. we're back from serie b, we're supposed to keep climbing, not going down.

so all in all, i'm waiting for the up-coming year and then judge, still to early to predict if thats the dip or not.
I agree with all points you made, however, Martin's point was about getting trophies. For a team like Juve to finish 2nd-4th in the league for the next 3/4 years is a crises without trophies. I dont see us winning the league next year at all, specially with Ranieri in charge. We might look like real challenger for the scudetto at the early stage of the season, but we'll eventually falter the way that Ranieri has been with his previous clubs (excluding Parma). That is a crises.
 

white_rabbit

Senior Member
Apr 9, 2006
592
#11
IMO before 2010 i dont expect the club to return to its rightful status which is competing on all three competitions at the same time.

but we i expect them at least to grab CL spot and and compete in coppa italia until then.

winning anything during the next three years will boost the process

as for the 'cycle' we are at the beginning of a new one.
 
OP
Martin

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #12
    I agree with all points you made, however, Martin's point was about getting trophies. For a team like Juve to finish 2nd-4th in the league for the next 3/4 years is a crises without trophies.
    It's a question of what constitutes a low period for us. Ancelotti was such a temporary low, amid success. But it wasn't a proper dip, we still had the same players who won both before and after that. And I'd say 2 years without winning is probably the maximum temporary low for us, any more and it's a serious crisis or what you may call it.

    I suppose it depends a bit what your standards are. What I've seen of Juve is mostly successful, for those who recall leaner years perhaps have more lenient standards. Either way, for those saying "it will take a couple of years", your answer is yes, we're entering a dip.
     
    Jul 24, 2006
    381
    #14
    I'm not being funny but Serie B was the nadir of our "dip"..

    Now we are back on the rise dude!! With young players that love Juve, senior pros that have stuck with us in hard times and a coach that is here for the project and not the salary.

    Juve will be back on top soon, spirit and class always win out in the end.
     
    OP
    Martin

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
    56,913
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #15
    I'm not being funny but Serie B was the nadir of our "dip"..

    Now we are back on the rise dude!! With young players that love Juve, senior pros that have stuck with us in hard times and a coach that is here for the project and not the salary.

    Juve will be back on top soon, spirit and class always win out in the end.
    No, Serie B was a forced thing, it wasn't the end of a cycle per se. It's not really a relevant season at all, we were forced to B and so we did, that's that. Now we're back in Serie A and "the game is back on". Imagine we were never in B, we had the exact same squad as we do now, I'd be asking the same question.

    Juve will be back on top soon, spirit and class always win out in the end.
    Soon as in sort-of-soon or very-soon? Soon enough? How soon is soon?
     

    JCK

    Biased
    JCK
    May 11, 2004
    123,223
    #16
    IMO, it all depend on the up-coming year. If we manage to make a good year, and by saying good year I mean (to either finish 1st or 2nd in serie a, and to reach coppa final) then we're back on track.

    If we fail to take CL spot then I'll admit we're in crisis. so far I cant really tell our team is entering a crisis. we're back from serie b, we're supposed to keep climbing, not going down.

    so all in all, i'm waiting for the up-coming year and then judge, still to early to predict if thats the dip or not.
    I totally agree, it is too early to say we're in crisis.
     

    Stephan

    Senior Member
    Nov 9, 2005
    16,376
    #18
    martin, arent you overreacting by the age factor here? we got rid of some old players already, (thuram, zambro, emerson, canna), youngsters have get some expierence in the first team, even if most of them wont be in the starting lineup for upcoming seasons, they got expierence, playing together with expierenced world class players like nedved and del piero.
     
    OP
    Martin

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
    56,913
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #19
    martin, arent you overreacting by the age factor here? we got rid of some old players already, (thuram, zambro, emerson, canna), youngsters have get some expierence in the first team, even if most of them wont be in the starting lineup for upcoming seasons, they got expierence, playing together with expierenced world class players like nedved and del piero.
    Let's assume we don't win the league next season, can we all imagine that? Let's say we go back to winning after that, so scudetto in 08/09. Then this is our current squad at the start of 08/09:

    Buffon 30
    Nedved 36
    Camoranesi 32
    Del Piero 34
    Trezeguet 31

    Those are also the only flagship players we have left. Can you honestly hope for big success here?
     

    Juve_Kosova

    ★ ★ ★
    May 4, 2004
    11,622
    #20
    Good post Martin.. Also good from Azzurri7..

    I would be pleased if we end in top 4 (who wouldent:)).. And then we take one season at a time..
    But its still hard to say anything now.. Its football, anything can happen..
     

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